speaker: How do I know which path is best for me?

Is it possible to take on these challenges and obstacles?

Where do I even start?

Where do I even start?

What should I do with my life?

Sometimes the only way to find out is to go see what's possible.

Since 2001, we've been sharing the stories of people who ventured out and explored different career paths and different possibilities for their futures.

This is one of those stories.

This is "Roadtrip Nation."

Kay: Yo, what's up, Nichole?

Nichole: [Laugh] Kay: Look at you.

What's up, Nurudeen?

Nichole: Hey hey!

Man, it's been a while.

I kind of miss y'all a little bit.

Just this much, though.

All: [Laughing] Nurudeen: We're three formerly incarcerated scholars, and we've been on a road trip to speak with inspiring people who, like us, began their education inside prison and are now thriving on the outside.

Kay and Nichole have gone to their hometowns and interviewed people in their community, and now we're in my city, Boston.

♪♪♪ Nurudeen: I started off working out when I was in solitary just to pass time.

Out of my 15 years incarcerated, I spent in total almost 3 years in solitary confinement.

Me working out all the time and keeping that routine, that consistency helps me mentally.

I'm from Boston, came from two immigrant parents from Nigeria.

My father ended up getting deported when I was like probably like four or five years old.

That's when things got difficult.

That's when, like, I feel like I was going off-track, getting in trouble in school.

Growing up, I'm in Roxbury Academy homes.

There's police officers walking around the school with guns.

When you commit a crime in school or commit an act in school, they don't have counselors, they don't have mental health support, they just automatically call the law enforcement.

That's when I like finally like just like gave into the notion of we're not gonna be anything, they already assume that we're criminals, so you might as well be a criminal, so that's when I just like full-fledged just continued being in the gang lifestyle and just being in the streets, and then eventually I got incarcerated at the age of 17 and spent 15 years in prison.

I went in at a young age that I didn't really know myself.

Who am I?

What's my purpose?

What's my goal?

I'd never seen college as my future.

Boston College coming into the facility was what was missing.

Boston College was the first recognized higher bachelor's degree program all over the state.

Being able to have this second chance, second opportunity to get the privilege to get enrolled into a prestigious school like Boston College and just being able to excel in it, it felt amazing.

It just felt like it gave me humanity back, gave me the sense of like, I'm worthy, I'm smart enough, I'm capable, I'm an equal.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Nurudeen: Today, we're interviewing Mac Hudson.

Mac Hudson is an individual that I met inside when I was incarcerated with him, and I always heard of his name: doing legal work, helping individuals get out of prison, fight institutional disciplinary reports.

He also started his degree inside and finished it outside at the Emerson Prison Initiative.

What made you, like, focus on the law inside, and just being so great at it?

Mac Hudson: Coming from the streets, you kinda get an understanding when something is wrong.

We instinctively know when something is wrong, but I didn't have the language to address it, and so that made me wanna learn the law.

So one of the things I really used to teach folks behind the wall is how to protect your process, like, you know, like understand that there's these regulations, these entitlements.

You know, you have to use them, and you have to learn how to get them addressed if you don't get the right responses.

They was making us go--have access to the law library fully chained, and that mean we couldn't write, type, nothing, so I filed a suit that led to them having to put a slot in the door and unchain us.

For me, it was just a matter of having the means to rectify a wrong, and that y'all don't get to just have your way with me, any kind of way.

Nurudeen: What made you pursue higher education in prison?

Mac: I was locked up for 33 years, so I was there at a time where when I came in, education was being offered, and by the time I made up my mind, they stopped.

The Pell Grants was no longer offered if you was incarcerated, and then I was just left with this longing.

So 30 years later when it came back around, when Emerson presented its 6-credit course, I'm like, "I gotta get into this class," and I did, and shortly thereafter it became a bachelor's program, and I was happy to be the recipient of that.

Nurudeen: You did 30-something years incarcerated.

I just wanna know, like, how did you like navigate that whole thing, and just like--because I did 15, you did basically double.

I don't see myself doing double of what I did.

How do you navigate all through that chaos and focus on the law and get into school?

Like, how did you mentally navigate that?

Mac: Reading, right?

Reading was really--you know how they say reading is fundamental?

Reading for me was eye-opening because that kinda like changed the trajectory of my mind from the very first stage of really understanding that there was a struggle bigger than me, right?

And somehow, I was betraying the struggle and the life choices that I had taken.

Nurudeen: What did it mean for you to cross the stage when you graduated when you came home?

Mac: It was so moving, you know, to walk across the stage and have my family there.

This is really exciting.

I don't even have the words to express like what it meant to me to be able to do that.

Nurudeen: I'm just like picturing myself, like, that's gonna be me eventually.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Nurudeen: I'm now the first graduate of the Boston College Prison Education Program.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Nurudeen: Somebody would've told me 13 years ago sitting in that cell that I'll be graduating with honors, that would've never been a thought in my mind.

Now I'm an alumni for Boston College.

I'm officially part of that community now.

♪♪♪ Nurudeen: I'm gonna be joining Nichole and Kay down in Colorado, and I can't wait to see them again and just hear what's going on with them.

♪♪♪ Kay: Hey!

Nichole: Hey, welcome to Denver!

Woo!

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Kay: We're finishing up our road trip here in Colorado and going inside Denver Women's Prison, where currently and formerly incarcerated students are also teaching.

Nichole: And we also get to meet with some of the other students in the classroom and connect with them and really see what their education is like inside the prison.

I'm excited to just kind of see what other prisons offer as far as education I know all of our experiences are different, like drastically different, so what does that look like for them currently right now?

Nurudeen: Most individuals like us want to go back to our own prisons just to show people, like, it is possible.

Kay: First up, David Carrillo.

David was incarcerated for over 30 years from the age of 19.

In prison, he earned an associate's, bachelor's, and master's degree, and became the first incarcerated person in the country hired by a university to teach classes.

David was granted clemency in 2023, and since his release, he's continued doing the work inside.

David: Alright, let me welcome everybody to EDU 256.

Today we're gonna talk about consumer choice.

I was released from the Colorado Territorial Correctional Facility on January 31, 2024.

I think it was maybe four months later I walked right back into that prison to teach a class for Red Rocks Community College.

I grew up inside of here.

I was 19.

When I got out, I was 50.

All the people that I left behind, basically kind of like my family.

When I came into prison, I was involved in the gang politics, and in a sense I helped to lead people into prison, into the gangs.

When I decided to start making a change in my life, I wanted to try to help lead people out of this stuff.

I was tired of putting people in here, and so now that I'm out and I can come back in, I actually get to show my family in a sense that there's a path, right?

There's a way out through education.

Through real change, there's opportunity.

Nurudeen: I know you went in when you was 19.

A similar age, as myself when I was 17.

Like, what was that turning point, and why was you pursuing education that turning point for you?

David: I went in at 19, but you know, I've often referred to myself as a state-raised baby.

I was in foster homes since about the age of 11 in and out of juvenile facilities from California to Colorado.

Going in at 19, it was kind of like, that was almost a rite of passage, right?

It was expected, and I went in with a life sentence.

I had reached this point where I knew something needed to change.

You know, I came to this point of realization where it was like, "Well, this is it, this is the best this world has to offer," and so I started doing different things, and education ended up becoming one of them.

I remember getting the first certificate that I received, and it filled me with a sense of pride that I had never experienced before, and I just continued to chase it down until I ultimately received my master's degree while I was still in prison.

Nurudeen: Can you explain, like, the importance of currently incarcerated students having access to technology?

David: When I got out, people were asking me if I struggled with technology myself, but with the use of the Chromebooks, I was able to learn how to use Google Docs and Google Sheets.

I took a computer information system program that was offered here in Colorado which taught me how to use Microsoft Office.

If you don't allow technology in, all you're doing is still keeping individuals behind, so there's gonna be barriers to them to being able to advance when they get out.

Now, they might have book knowledge, but how to translate that book knowledge into today's environment with the use of technology and everything, you just--they're still gonna be far behind, so I think it's critical that states through their own processes begin to adapt some kind of technology to help give individuals a step up in order to help reduce recidivism.

Kay: If another DOC or CDCR in California would love to replicate it, like, what's your endorsement of it?

David: They wanted us to have programs, right?

They didn't just want to perpetuate this cycle of violence and, I mean, idle hands, right?

Idle hands is the devil's playground, as the saying goes.

If you got guys who have nothing to do all day every day, that's hard on their staff.

Somebody who's earned a higher degree in prison has a less likely chance of returning to prison based off of that education, so the more educational opportunities that are provided to people who are incarcerated, the less likely they are going to reoffend.

Nurudeen: What do you do for yourself, like for leisure, for your mental health?

David: I'm still figuring that stuff out.

All: [Laugh] Nichole: Nurudeen's with you too.

David: I had had the mindset for so long that I wanted to be able to hit the ground running, right?

Like, that was something that I had committed to for years before I even thought anything would be possible.

I just knew that if that miracle ever happened for me, I wanted to be prepared, and so I prepared myself.

And when I came home, oh man, I hit the ground running fast, right?

I had three jobs walking out the door, and I got me a brand new barbecue pit and threw some steaks on there last night with my girlfriend's daughters, and yeah, it was just awesome.

It was amazing.

I don't quite know what I like to do yet, but the journey of discovering it is just-- Kay: Beautiful.

David: It's awesome, you know, and I'm figuring it out.

Nichole: Next up, we're interviewing Serena Ahmad.

Serena was a lawyer on the outside, and inside she is both using her knowledge to teach courses for Adams State University and pursuing a master's.

Serena: I'm Serena Ahmad.

I was incarcerated as of February 2021, just a couple of months after I got my law degree, so I am a lawyer.

Thankfully, I hadn't taken the bar yet, so they haven't taken my bar away from me, so I have a shot at being a lawyer when I get out, but I now teach--so now I'm the first female incarcerated adjunct professor with Adams State University.

Nurudeen: If you could explain the impact for folks watching of having an incarcerated individual appear teaching the class, why is that important?

Serena: I'll start with my own ignorance, right?

When I was out and I was a lawyer and working downtown, I really thought prison was a lot like "Shawshank Redemption."

They don't really teach you what prison actually is when you're in law school, so when I came here, I was very scared, and so now that I have that experience as a person who's been incarcerated for almost five years now, my students are able to listen to me, and I'm able to listen to them.

Having that trust and that understanding that, "Hey, my teacher actually knows what's going on" is extremely helpful, and it also allows me, I think, to have an understanding when they're going through a mental health day.

"Hey, come to office hours because you and I need to sit down.

You're very capable," and giving them that motivation where the rest of the yard is telling them, "Well, why are you even in school?

You don't belong there."

Kay: What type of educational opportunities is offered here?

Serena: So here at Denver Women's Correctional Facility, there are quite a few options.

We have all types of classes to get you into like a technical field, so customer service classes, foundations, which is like carpentry and being able to physically build things, and then when I started teaching was actually right when the bachelor's program was brought to Colorado women's facilities.

So my master's is a correspondence course.

We don't offer master's in person just yet.

Kay: And what personal impact has occurred while pursuing your degree?

Serena: Both of my parents do not have their education, and so they had always pushed education on myself and my brother as a way to like have a confidence that nobody can take from you.

When I came to prison, all that confidence is, "Sorry, you're an inmate now.

Here's a number, have a good day," and through education and getting back into that realm of like being a student and learning things and remembering that I can use my brain for more than just a couple of pull-ups and push-ups in the yard, that has really put me back to where I was, right, so that's brought a lot more confidence, just personally, and then I do see that in my students too.

We have a lot of--I don't want to say broken, but definitely some cracked people, right, but there's a type of art where you break the vase on purpose and you put it back together with gold, and so that's what we're doing in education, right, is we're putting people back together with gold, and they've really all blossomed, and I'm very proud of them, and I'm not going to cry.

Regardless of the fact that like, yes, like, we've all done something, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they're a person.

Humans are not designed to be alone, right, and so if we can perpetuate that in our society and encourage people to encourage others regardless of what they've done or what they've been through, then can you imagine what our society would look like?

Like, if everybody was like, "You know what, you're good, I got you.

Here's my hand."

Kay: We just came out of Denver Women Correctional Facility, and I'm pretty sure y'all feeling the same way.

I'm just like flabbergasted sitting in class with David and being with the students.

Like, just hats off to Colorado.

Nurudeen: The Denver DOC sees the potential, sees the opportunity, sees the importance of higher education in prison, and they have two great examples.

They got multiple classrooms.

They got technology to help them.

Nichole: But then to also meet Serena, who is now also an incarcerated professor is huge, right, because Adams State continued to bring that opportunity into the prisons and reach out to the women's facility also, and I think that speaks volumes to making progress in higher education across all genders.

Nurudeen: Just having those type of people like her and David, it changes the culture in the prison.

It benefits the DOC in the long run.

It reduces violence, it reduces drugs, it reduces a lot of things.

You can--now you can focus more on what needs to be focused on.

People that come to prison don't have anything.

They're in poverty, so if you address that issue of providing them an opportunity through education or whatever they're interested in, it changes the culture, and other people buy into it.

For me, everything is like, I gotta see it to believe it sometimes, and just seeing them up there, I just picture myself or you or you being up there teaching.

Nichole: I really love the policy part of it.

I love changing the DOC, the educational stream of it, right, like fighting the man and giving back in the education, and I would be more than happy to be the long-haired professor walking in.

♪♪♪ Nichole: We're at Skydive Colorado, where we're gonna jump out of a plane.

Kay: A perfectly good plane.

Nichole: [Laugh] A perfectly good plane.

Stop looking scared!

Kay: It's a part of life.

Nichole: [Laugh] speaker: So on behalf of the whole community, welcome to the sport of skydiving.

Kay: Let's go!

All: [Laugh] instructor: I've never seen anybody less nervous.

Nurudeen: Yeah, I'm fine.

instructor: You're excited.

I'm more nervous than you are, bro.

instructor: Excited?

Nichole: I'm super excited.

speaker: Nervous?

Nichole: No.

instructor: No, not nervous.

Kay: When Nurudeen and Nichole were so excited about skydiving, I just admitted to them, like, I'm scared, scared out of my mind.

But I talk about, you know, being brave, and I think this was my first chance to like show it.

As we were going up, I just kept breathing.

I'm closing my eyes and I'm praying, and I'm like, I leave my insecurities here.

I leave my doubt here.

All that fear, pain, and judgment, you can let that go.

I just left it on the plane.

[Airplane engine and wind sound] It wasn't scary.

It was beautiful.

Let's go!

And immediately, like, all of those feelings, elation and fear and confusion and being uncertain, and then the remorse, like, I just broke down.

You know, after serving 18 years, like, I never thought that I would be able to do this, and then as we're coming down, I just kept thinking about, you know, the person that I murdered, and like how I stole all of these experiences from him, you know?

Nurudeen: You're out, you're good, man, you made it, you made it.

Nichole: How was it?

You okay?

Nichole: What was the most meaningful part of my education?

Learning that I was smart, learning that I could do it, learning that I was worthy.

Coming home from prison and reintegrating with my family and working in the mother role and trying to re-bond and all of those things has been very difficult, and it's taken a very, very long time to start to heal that.

♪♪♪ [Hopeful music] Nichole: I hope that seeing this gives a little bit more faith to my family and a little bit more knowledge to my children.

Um.

♪♪♪ [Laughs] [Airplane noise] ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Nurudeen: Education, the route I took was the best decision I made in my life, not just because it granted me opportunities to be in certain rooms, be around certain people, be on this show.

I feel like education brought me closer to my family, just being-- [cries] Just being away for so long, now I'm able to come home, be productive, and be around them is because I took that chance of education.

♪♪♪ Kay: Since I've been out, I've been insecure, lacking self-confidence, really doubtful of my abilities.

I didn't really know who Kay was as a free person, and I think I'm getting a good, like, gist of what that is now.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Romarilyn Ralson: There are models all across the country that you can lean on to say, "Well, they're doing it in California, or they're doing it in New York, or they're doing it in Washington."

Step up!

David: I love to engage my students.

It's just amazing to see so many people with so much new hope.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪